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Condition Effect Negation

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#1
The_Deadman

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Let's start out with the Wiki Article: http://yugioh.wikia....ondition_Effect

We can see there are True Conditions and Pseudo Conditions.

Now then, there are several points that need to be addressed.

First off, if a card that says "You can only ____ one ____ per turn." activation gets negated, can you activate/play another one? Does it make a difference if it is a monster effect or a spell/trap card? Are there any difference between monster effects and spell/trap effects OR ACTIVATIONS that get negated?


Moving on to specific conditions.

"You can only use 1 '________' effect per turn, and only once that turn."

[See Hysteric Sign and The Elemental Dragons.]

If Hysteric Sign's activation of the effect to add Elegant Egotist is negated with Shooting Quasar Dragon, can another Hysteric Sign be played to add an Elegant Egotist?

If a Divine Wrath is chained to Tempest, Elemental Dragon of Cyclones' ignition effect to summon itself, can it be banished to add a WIND Dragon to the hand in the same turn?


"You can only activate 1 '______' per turn."

[See Fire Formation - Tenki and Most Spellbook spell cards.]

If Fire Formation - Tenki or a Spellbook of Fate is negated with Dark Bribe/Solemn Judgement/Magic Jammer, can you activate another? [I was told yes. Why? Was the activation not attempted?]


In accordance with the above, is there a difference between ACTIVATE and USE?


"This card cannot _____ the turn you activate this effect."

[See Chaos Sorcerer/Black Luster Soldier/Number 11: Big Eye/Mecha Phantom Beast Dragossack]

See the TCG Ruling: http://yugioh.wikia....:Chaos_Sorcerer

If the ACTIVATION of any of these cards effects are negated, can they attack?
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Thanks to danna45 for the above.

http://forum.dueling...ins/?p=1124905 Alduin: I actually see your point of view and am no longer annoyed at you.
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[1/31/2014 12:11:00 AM] Armand: i listen to deadman even when he's rude. it helps that he's not rude for the sake of it, but rather, he is just a bit, when necesarry (1/31/2014 12:11:16 AM) Erosion: That's because he's Saxton Hale himself (1/31/2014 12:12:17 AM) Vincent: So what, Deadman became DeadManlyMan? (1/31/2014 12:13:09 AM) Erosion: Basically, he's gotten so good at making insightful posts, he could go off on a drunken rant on how x is bad and y is good, but nobody will mind because he's damn good at what he does (1/31/2014 12:14:01 AM) Vincent: Well yeah, and that's who he is; he just feels the need to fight for what he believes in as hard as he is capable of, and he is capable of a lot.


#2
AntiTcb

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First off, if a card that says "You can only ____ one ____ per turn." activation gets negated, can you activate/play another one? Does it make a difference if it is a monster effect or a spell/trap card? Are there any difference between monster effects and spell/trap effects OR ACTIVATIONS that get negated?


You can only activate one ____ per turn. <--- These are the ones you are allowed to activate again if their activation is negated.

You can only use one ____ per turn. <--- These cannot be used again after their activation is negated.


"You can only use 1 '________' effect per turn, and only once that turn."

[See Hysteric Sign and The Elemental Dragons.]

If Hysteric Sign's activation of the effect to add Elegant Egotist is negated with Shooting Quasar Dragon, can another Hysteric Sign be played to add an Elegant Egotist?

If a Divine Wrath is chained to Tempest, Elemental Dragon of Cyclones' ignition effect to summon itself, can it be banished to add a WIND Dragon to the hand in the same turn?


Another Hysteric Sign can be activated.

The effect of the Elemental Dragon cannot be activated.

(Note, Hysteric Sign actually says "You can only activate 1 "Hysteric Sign" effect per turn, and only once that turn.")

"You can only activate 1 '______' per turn."

[See Fire Formation - Tenki and Most Spellbook spell cards.]

If Fire Formation - Tenki or a Spellbook of Fate is negated with Dark Bribe/Solemn Judgement/Magic Jammer, can you activate another? [I was told yes. Why? Was the activation not attempted?]


The activation was negated, so there was no "____" activated. Hence, you can activate another one.

In accordance with the above, is there a difference between ACTIVATE and USE?


Yes.

"This card cannot _____ the turn you activate this effect."

[See Chaos Sorcerer/Black Luster Soldier/Number 11: Big Eye/Mecha Phantom Beast Dragossack]

See the TCG Ruling: http://yugioh.wikia....:Chaos_Sorcerer

If the ACTIVATION of any of these cards effects are negated, can they attack?


Yes they can.

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#3
The_Deadman

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Yes.


What is the difference between activate and use and where does it take relevance?

Yes, they can.


It seems as if the wiki is misleading.

If the effect of "Chaos Sorcerer" is activated (even if the effect is negated by another effect such as "Effect Veiler" or "Light and Darkness Dragon"), "Chaos Sorcerer" will not be able to attack during the turn.[1]

Light and Darkness Dragon negates activations... so it would seem even if more than just the effect of Chaos Sorcerer to banish was negated, he still wouldn't be able to attack.
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Thanks to danna45 for the above.

http://forum.dueling...ins/?p=1124905 Alduin: I actually see your point of view and am no longer annoyed at you.
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[1/31/2014 12:11:00 AM] Armand: i listen to deadman even when he's rude. it helps that he's not rude for the sake of it, but rather, he is just a bit, when necesarry (1/31/2014 12:11:16 AM) Erosion: That's because he's Saxton Hale himself (1/31/2014 12:12:17 AM) Vincent: So what, Deadman became DeadManlyMan? (1/31/2014 12:13:09 AM) Erosion: Basically, he's gotten so good at making insightful posts, he could go off on a drunken rant on how x is bad and y is good, but nobody will mind because he's damn good at what he does (1/31/2014 12:14:01 AM) Vincent: Well yeah, and that's who he is; he just feels the need to fight for what he believes in as hard as he is capable of, and he is capable of a lot.


#4
lolnopound1

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What is the difference between activate and use and where does it take relevance?



It seems as if the wiki is misleading.

If the effect of "Chaos Sorcerer" is activated (even if the effect is negated by another effect such as "Effect Veiler" or "Light and Darkness Dragon"), "Chaos Sorcerer" will not be able to attack during the turn.[1]

Light and Darkness Dragon negates activations... so it would seem even if more than just the effect of Chaos Sorcerer to banish was negated, he still wouldn't be able to attack.


Activate = Activation is negated you can activate another

Use = Even if activation is negated, you still attempted to "use" it so you cannot activate another.

#5
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Activating a monster's effect and activating a spell/trap are different things, regarding how the game state perceives them. When you activate a monster's effect, even if that activation is negated, the game state "recorded" your attempt to activate its effect. That's why, in Sorcerer's case, it doesn't allow it to attack.

When it comes to spells/traps, things are a bit different. A negated activation of a spell/trap is not perceived by the game state at all. It's like the card was never activated. For that reason, restrictions such as Pot of Duality don't apply, because the card was never activated.

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#6
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What is the difference between activate and use and where does it take relevance?



It seems as if the wiki is misleading.

If the effect of "Chaos Sorcerer" is activated (even if the effect is negated by another effect such as "Effect Veiler" or "Light and Darkness Dragon"), "Chaos Sorcerer" will not be able to attack during the turn.[1]

Light and Darkness Dragon negates activations... so it would seem even if more than just the effect of Chaos Sorcerer to banish was negated, he still wouldn't be able to attack.


Activating a monster's effect and activating a spell/trap are different things, regarding how the game state perceives them. When you activate a monster's effect, even if that activation is negated, the game state "recorded" your attempt to activate its effect. That's why, in Sorcerer's case, it doesn't allow it to attack.


The source on the Judge Forum for that Chaos Sorcerer ruling was updated as the ruling was originally incorrect. The wikia just hasn't reflected the change. If the effect of Chaos Sorcerer's activation is negated (such as by something like Light and Darkness Dragon), Chaos Sorcerer can attack.

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#7
The_Deadman

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Thanks for the detailed answers.

Also, good to know about that attacking update.
Posted Image
Thanks to danna45 for the above.

http://forum.dueling...ins/?p=1124905 Alduin: I actually see your point of view and am no longer annoyed at you.
Posted Image Posted Image

[1/31/2014 12:11:00 AM] Armand: i listen to deadman even when he's rude. it helps that he's not rude for the sake of it, but rather, he is just a bit, when necesarry (1/31/2014 12:11:16 AM) Erosion: That's because he's Saxton Hale himself (1/31/2014 12:12:17 AM) Vincent: So what, Deadman became DeadManlyMan? (1/31/2014 12:13:09 AM) Erosion: Basically, he's gotten so good at making insightful posts, he could go off on a drunken rant on how x is bad and y is good, but nobody will mind because he's damn good at what he does (1/31/2014 12:14:01 AM) Vincent: Well yeah, and that's who he is; he just feels the need to fight for what he believes in as hard as he is capable of, and he is capable of a lot.


#8
lolnopound1

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Ness compared it to Scapegoat vs Magic Jammer and being able to summon.

So are monster effects comparable to S/T activations unlike what Reaper said?

#9
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Ness compared it to Scapegoat vs Magic Jammer and being able to summon.

So are monster effects comparable to S/T activations unlike what Reaper said?


They are when they both use the word "activate."

At the time when we thought there was a difference, the word "used" didn't exist in card text in this manner.

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#10
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The source on the Judge Forum for that Chaos Sorcerer ruling was updated as the ruling was originally incorrect. The wikia just hasn't reflected the change. If the effect of Chaos Sorcerer's activation is negated (such as by something like Light and Darkness Dragon), Chaos Sorcerer can attack.


Thank you for this information, sir.





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